Wednesday, February 18, 2009

Ongoing Arguments.

The following is another answer to a letter I've received from visitors to this site and readers of my book. As usual, I believe my answer serves to reveal the contents of the original letter that prompted my reply.


As for your idea that I drew conclusions and then proceeded to research to find the proof, you truly have it reversed. When I began to study the Holy Books of all three religions, I was curious, especially about Islam, which I knew nothing about. It was only after I had studied the Koran that it finally dawned on me what Muhammad was actually saying. And, as I said to you before, I am NOT INTERESTED in which rules for daily life you or anyone follows, aside from the Ten Commandments, which all three religions try to embrace. Otherwise, I couldn't care less if anyone wants to sacrifice a cow on any day of the week. I am strictly concerned with what the Prophets revealed about God and the Promised Messiah.

Now, onto particulars! You advise me: “If you want to argue stuff, please do so with more knowledge and less hate.” I honestly cannot understand how you perceive “hate” in any sentence I’ve written, including my whole book: “Of
Promises and Previews.” And that is especially true of discussions of Muhammad, whose role as a God-sent Prophet commands my full and sincere respect. But I do NOT honor the CLERGIES of all three religions, and perhaps that is how you
think you see “hate” in my words. However, I certainly do NOT “hate” them—I am disgusted with them and their centuries-long efforts to prove their own religion the “Only Truth.”

In addition, “everything” is certainly not about Israel. Essentially “everything” is about the “gross darkness” that the Hebrew Prophets specifically described, which humans can now create through nuclear weapons. The “war” against modern Israel’s existence, on the land that God gave them, can
become the reason those weapons will be used. Thus, the darkest prophecies can readily be fulfilled, though the Prophets also told us we could avoid the “darkness” by turning our hearts to each other (Isaiah 60:2; Malachi 3:24/4:6). It is WISDOM for us to avoid the darkness--not because it will be the time of the Judgement--as you so glibly dismiss it--but because it will be a horrific nightmare that will not be relieved until the Messiah comes to rule the world from Jerusalem. You think the Judgement is at hand--but we have prophecies to see fulfilled before that happens--and I hope, for your sake and everyone's--that you and the billions like you have learned not to promote division before you are judged!

IF Jews, Christians and Muslims reconcile their concept of the One and Only Lord God, as Muhammad taught, they would lead the way for all mankind to “turn” their hearts to each other. And we could create a peaceful world that would
welcome the Person Muhammad described as “…the Messiah, Isa son of Marium…” who “… does not disdain to be a servant of God” (Women 4:171-172). In the course of writing my book, I have studied numerous English translations of the Koran and
some of them translate the Messiah’s name as “Jesus” and some call him “Isa.” But every one of them speaks of him as the “Messiah.” Muhammad was “simply” trying to explain to Christians (and Jews and Muslims) that the Messiah is NOT a
god, he is “the Messiah”—who “does not disdain to be a servant of God.” I’d sincerely like to hear why you, as a Muslim, ignore that elementary message that Muhammad spent his life delivering to mankind.

Aside from the Ten Commandments, which all three religions honor, I am NOT interested in what you and all believers eat and all the other various rules observed by the individual religions! My only concern is what ALL the Prophets
told us about God and the Messiah He promised to send us. On those subjects, the Prophets NEVER contradict each other. It is the individual CLERGIES that are so busy contradicting what other religions teach about Them and—sadly—it is the
clergies that you are so busy quoting.

26 comments:

Anonymous said...
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Theophiles said...

JBD I'm not sure why you believe in the agreement of superficial teachings of Judism/Christianity with Islamic teachings equates with these religions agreement on fundamentals which they do not. If we ignore what the clergy said and only look at what the prophets believed this becomes very clear. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the light no man comes unto the Father except through me. Jesus also claimed to be the Son of God and that salvation is only through him. Mohummud said there is only one Allah and he does not have a son. The Tora speaks of a God of loves even those that are lost. In the Koran Allah never says he loves anyone and that he turns his back on thoses that refuse to believe in him. On the fundamentals Islam and Christian/Jewish beliefs are at complete odds with each other not because of clergical influences but because they fundamentally are. I notice JBD never specifically addresses these fundamental differences in her replies, perfering to polish over them. To the educated reader no matter what views you may hold on these faiths I urge that the facts of these faiths be examined before conclusions are reached
TT

jbd said...

Theo,
You really need to read my book on the subject before you leap to so many conclusions!

Theophiles said...

Dear JBD,
Why does anyone need to read your book on the differences of Isalm and Christianity? Are you a prophet? I dont think you claim to be. Are you God? I am certain you are not. Would not God speak to us clearly so no one must resort only to the interpretations of a JBD to understand him? Even from the most casual of readings from the Koran and Bible any High Schooler will know that these two religions are not from the same God because of all the fundamental differences in doctrine issued from thier PROPHETS. The priest and clergy are not a issue here. Bringing the P&C in only creates a strawman argument.
TT

jbd said...

Dear Theo,
If you really want to hear my answers to your intelligent questions, again I must tell you you to read my book. It is impossible for me to fully answer you in a letter when you are dealing with the subjects I took a book to discuss! After you read my book, then your questions--or complaints-- could be specific. This way, you are simply complaining about what I'll call my "audacity" to think I could help people understand the Lord God of Abraham. But what do you think religions do? They try to explain His teachings. I am offering a different explanation, as people urged me to do after verbal discussions. If you ever read my book, I'll be delighted to hear from you. JBD

Theophiles said...

JBD I believe one must read the sacried books of the faiths without burdening them with our prejudices. Let them and their prophets speak for themselves, and they actually do. The prophet Muhammad spoke in Maryam "It is not befitting to Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him!" Yet Jesus speaking with his apostale Peter said in the book of Matthew - "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." Now Muhammad says God would never have a son and Jesus says he is the Son of God, this is no small contradiction. JBD you say "the Prophets NEVER condradict each other". The three of you, Muhammad, Jesus & JBD cannot all be right. Your book does not answer this conflict. At least two of the three of you must be wrong.
TT

jbd said...

Muhammad frequently spoke of "The Messiah Jesus." But, Jesus, as the first creation of the "only true God," (as Jesus spoke of his Creator) and as the appointed Messiah of mankind, does not transform himself into "God the Son," as the early Christians soon began to speak of him. There is a difference between being God and being the Messiah. If you didn't understand that point after reading my book, I suspect you simply scanned the book!

Theophiles said...

JBD then what of Jesus saying he is the Son of God as recorded in Matthew? I also notice the scriptures never identified Jesus as some one who was created. They speak of him as God. For example in Jude its recorded- So I want to remind you, though you already know these things that Jesus first rescued the nation of Isreal from Egypt. What??! Jesus was not living when God used Moses to lead the nation of Isreal out of Egypt...unless he was God! Yet if Muhammad said God never had a son and Jesus said he is the son of God and you say the prophets never conflict with each other how do you reconcile these conflicts?

Theophiles said...

One more thing JBD. I fine no conflict with Jesus referring to God the Father as the one true God and Jesus himself being God as Jesus said- I and the Father are one. This is in keeping with the Christian understanding that God is one expressed in three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Oh and yes I've read your book with great intensity. I found nothing in it that addressed the very real conflicts between Islam and Christianity/Judism. I just can't get around why Muhammad would said God never had a son and Jesus said he was the son of God. Think about it..the God of the universe, a complex and well organized one at that, so precise, so detailed created by him. Think also about all the prophecies before Jesus was born about him. That he would be born in Bethelhem, to a specific family, at a specific time. Again God being very precise, also very clear. Also all the prophets' before and after Jesus messages were very precise and without conflicting with one another, except for Muhammad. For this same God to send a prophet to say God never had a son and conflict with not only Jesus who said he was the son of God but with every other prophet God sent, well that goes against all that we know who God is doesn't? There are of course many other conflicts between Islam and Christianity that makes us question that these faiths are of the same God. Yet if you can explain why God who has been so precise and consistent up to this point chooses to be at conflict with himself by sending Muhammad to say God would never have a son 600 years after Jesus came and said he was the son of God I would be very grateful.
TT

jbd said...

I repeat, Muhammad denied that Jesus was "God the Son." There is a stupendous difference between "the Son of God," and "God the Son." The history of Jews and Muslims could have been very different if the Christians hadn't turned Jesus into a god. And, I repeat, the Messiah Jesus worshiped his Father and advised us to do the same! He didn't speak of the "3 pieces" of his Father--he spoke of the "only true God."

Theophiles said...

JBD God the Son or the son of God means the same. It certainly did according to the Jewish people of Jesus time. When Jesus said he was the son of God they wanted to kill him for it because he was making himself equal with God. See look in John -Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. So JBD I understand that maybe in your mind when we talk about a father and son we view one as superior over another but the custom of that time meant they are the same. And if they are the same I can see how Jesus would worship his Father without the need to compete for leadership. In fact we can see the reverse in Psalms God the Father pays reverance to his son Jesus - Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You. What??! How can God anoint God? Seems obvious to me the messiah is identified sitting on his throne and because of his righteousness as God, God the Father is anointing the son of God, or if you prefer God the son. Read it for yourself in Old testament Psalm 45:6,7 or New Testament in Hebrews 1:8,9. Pretty amazing I think

Theophiles said...

So JBD this is what I mean, we have all these scripture verses saying Jesus is God. The Christians did not make him God. The Jews did not make him God. Jesus said he was God. So I ask you how can we reconcile this with Muhammad who said God would not have a son(or equal) and Jesus who said he was equal to God as his son? You said the prophets never conflict but here is one very major conflict. A major conflict which unfortunately your book does not address.
TT

Theophiles said...

Oh and JBD sense you parsed words when you wrote -I repeat, Muhammad denied that Jesus was "God the Son." There is a stupendous difference between "the Son of God," and "God the Son." - I will repeat what Muhammad actually said in the book of Maryam- "It is not befitting to Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him!" Yet in the book of Hebrews God the father(not a prophet, but God) said - You are My Son, today I have begotten You. I don't know JBD but it seems when read the Islamic and Christians scriptures side by side they conflict in significant ways.
TT

Theophiles said...

Sorry to machine gun you but I just noticed in that last scripture comparision Muhammad is actully in direct conflict with the Christian God himself!!!!!Not another messenger but God! See that why these two faiths cannot be from the same God. Lets just accept the facts as they present themselves to us.
TT

jbd said...

According to you "the Son of God" and "God the Son" mean "the same." I presume that is your honest belief--therefore, I have nothing more to say to you on the subject of God and the Messiah. Our differences are too basic to continue a conversation.

Theophiles said...

JBD you presume wrong. I did not give my beliefs. I only shared whatis written in the SCRIPTURES of the Bible and Koran. It is disappointing that when some belief systems - such as the one presented on this site - are challenged with a straight forward comparision of what scriptures say vs belief vs certain immutable and indisputable facts they either gloss over fundamental conflicts or simply ignore them completely. As with any purchase let the buyer beware and fully research the proposition before signing their minds and hearts on the dotted line.JBD I encourage you and all to check out resources like eternal-productions.org for research or just read the Bible at blueletterbible.org. It really is that simple people.
TT

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Mamoon said...

peace be onto you, dear JBD!
You are right mentioning the agreement on the fundamentals of the three religions, however, a unique text scripture is not available with any other religion(as we have many versions of both The Christian and The Jewish "scripture") except Quran, which is a unique copy of The Islamic scripture still available with Mankind.It has prophecies about the concerned issues including the arrival of Isa/Jesus/Messiah. It is a determined fact/event that would happen in the future. We have no control over it. And the way we, human beings, perceive today, is that our deeds will lead us to the arrival of Isa(a.s.)
Islam also mentions the holy event which will have two fractions opposite to one another. Isa(a.s.) being the leader of one.
So far Israel is concerned, we have Human Rights commissions and they have shown insufficiency in providing Legality to this quest. However, i agree with u as a Plural Muslim that Humanity demands care, affection and love from Humans. And i am proud that my religion considers "the saving of one human being as like saving the Whole Humanity". Who else can give this much importance to humanity!
Regards.
(Dear JBD, i pray/wish that you have the same place as i wish for myself in the life hereafter. my personal wish to you.)

jbd said...

Thank you Mamoon for your very thoughtful message.

Anonymous said...

Mamoon would you clearify by what you mean when you say the Quran is unique and the Christian and Jewish scriptures have many versions, thank you

Theophiles said...

Mamoon...the Koran states Muslims are to look to the people of the book (Jews)for truth and to not dispute with them, surah 10:94... "But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers."

Mamoon said...

thank you everybody!

Quran is unique in many aspects as follows:
1. Its present copy is purely God's words with no addition or deletion by anybody because it was compiled during the life of the Prophet Mohammad(peace be upon him)and has been in the same form and arrangement throughout its history.(Bible and Torah have been compiled after the departure of the prophets onto whom they were revealed, by their disciples on the basis of their memory.)

2. Quran is in Arabic language which is a living language and among the top 5 languages of the globe today. (the original language of Bible is Greek which is a dead language and of the Torah is Hebrew which is spoken by a small minority.)

3. It is the only religious scripture that can be memorized word by word and there are many Muslims in the present day who have memorized it word by word. No other scripture in the world has this honor.

4. Moreover, Bible had 100 samples out of which 4 were selected and they are prevailing today. So there are 4 different copies of Bible present today. It is not the case with Quran.

5. The Jewish scripture has up to 20 additional documents other than the main scripture.

6. Quran is the only scripture that is recited in its original language, Arabic, throughout the world today. Although it has been translated to many languages but no translation has got the status of its original text.

7. Quran also testifies about all the true prophets including Jesus(Isa__peace be upon him) and Moses(Mosa__peace be upon him)and almost all other true prophets known to humanity.

And so on...
Peace be on you.

jbd said...

Thanks for the informative comment, Mamoon.

Mamoon said...

Be blessed !

janebdrake said...

Thank you for the blessing.